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Post by buttybach1932 on Aug 12, 2023 12:27:23 GMT
Hi Norton John You are having fun ! and this problem is a real can of worms. I will be honest and say that I have never fully understood the subtleties of Villiers flywheel magneto design, their use of 'dummy magnets' dummy pole-shoes' and the 'three pole magneto'. All I know was that it caused me some grief when I re-magnetised 3 pole flywheels for Villiers Junior De-Luxe engines for a friend. With regard to Villiers magneto flywheels there appear to be numerous variations that look similar. The 122cc VIIID engine that preceded the 9D had a 2 pole magneto that had an aluminium 'dust' cover plate fixed to the flywheel by 3 screws. The 9D electrics were upgraded by fitting a 6 pole magneto this also had the aluminium 'dust' cover plate fixed with 3 screws. There are two versions of this flywheel magneto both use the same stator and coils but one has 4 off Black & Yellow Stripe magnets and 2off White & Red Stripe magnets that are 1 1/8" wide and is rated at 18 Watts. The second version has 5 off White & Red Stripe magnets and 1 off gunmetal dummy magnet that are 1 7/16" wide and is rated at 24 Watts. Both flywheels have 4 off Iron Pole-Shoes and 2 off Gunmetal Dummy Pole-Shoes but both types should have the three tapped holes for fixing the dust cover. The 98cc 1F and 2F engines used a similar 6 pole flywheel magneto that also had an aluminium 'dust' cover secured by three screws. The flywheel is the same for both engines and has 4 off Red & White Stripe magnets and 2 off Gunmetal Dummy magnets. The Villiers drawing does not show any Dummy Pole-Shoes. The 1F ( two speed ) version has 2 off lighting coils and the 2F ( single speed ) version has 1 off lighting coil. We then come to the 10D and 6E engines these have an Aluminium 'saucepan' cover secured by spring clips so there are no tapped holes in the brass flywheel. The flywheel is a 6 pole type that has 6 off Red & White Stripe magnets, 5 off Iron Pole-Shoes and one off Gunmetal Dummy Pole-Shoe. The stator on this version has an ignition coil and 2 off lighting coils. There are also other Villiers Motorcycle and Industrial engines that use similar Magneto Flywheels that I do not have any details of, but at least you have the details of the correct one for you 9D engine. As you can see from the above if you use the wrong flywheel with your stator it is unlikely to work correctly. Later Villiers engines used Aluminium Magneto Flywheels that look completely different. Regards Butty Bach
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Post by nortonjohn on Aug 12, 2023 21:25:44 GMT
Butty Bach, Again, you have come up with answers to my questions. I measured the outside of the lighting and ignition coils and the inside of the flywheel. With the exception of the air gap between the two they are the same. I wasn't aware of the color coding of the magnets; I will have to go back out to the workshop tomorrow. Way to hot out there right now at 106f. Where did you find this information? Again, thank you for your help. John
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Post by buttybach1932 on Aug 13, 2023 9:59:06 GMT
Hi Norton John
The information on the Villiers Flywheel Magnetos is out of 'The Villiers Engine' by B.E Browning published by C. Arthur Pearson Ltd. The 1951 Second Edition that I used belonged to my dad. He must have bought it when he had his 1952 James Captain.
I also have several different copies of 'The Book of The Villiers Engine' by Cyril Grange published by Pitman's. A 1935 Fourth Edition, a Wartime Edition and a 1974 reprint that covers the later 1950s and 60s Villiers engines.
Recently I managed to get hold of copies of 'The History of the Villiers Engineering Company' by Jack Sizer. I have the blue book that covers their Motorcycle and Microcar engines ( a gift from a BTSC stalwart ) and the green book that covers their Industrial Engines.
I also have a few Villiers Parts Books and Workshop Manuals and accept any that people want to get rid of.
With the Villiers information that I have I can usually help people out.
We are having a wonderful summer if you grow Runner and Dwarf Beans warm with rain most days. My freezer will be full of beans by the end of the year and my grass has never been so green.
Regards Butty Bach
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Post by 1951superlux on Aug 13, 2023 10:16:25 GMT
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Post by nortonjohn on Aug 13, 2023 12:02:01 GMT
Thank you both for the links to Villiers books. Time to get on Abe Books and see if I can find them.
Norton John
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Post by nortonjohn on Aug 13, 2023 12:56:17 GMT
Thank you both for the links to Villiers books. Time to get on Abe Books and see if I can find them. Norton John I have placed an order for both books thru Abe Books. Again, thank you both for your help. John (Norton John)
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Post by nortonjohn on Aug 13, 2023 17:05:02 GMT
Hi Norton John You are having fun ! and this problem is a real can of worms. I will be honest and say that I have never fully understood the subtleties of Villiers flywheel magneto design, their use of 'dummy magnets' dummy pole-shoes' and the 'three pole magneto'. All I know was that it caused me some grief when I re-magnetised 3 pole flywheels for Villiers Junior De-Luxe engines for a friend. With regard to Villiers magneto flywheels there appear to be numerous variations that look similar. The 122cc VIIID engine that preceded the 9D had a 2 pole magneto that had an aluminium 'dust' cover plate fixed to the flywheel by 3 screws. The 9D electrics were upgraded by fitting a 6 pole magneto this also had the aluminium 'dust' cover plate fixed with 3 screws. There are two versions of this flywheel magneto both use the same stator and coils but one has 4 off Black & Yellow Stripe magnets and 2off White & Red Stripe magnets that are 1 1/8" wide and is rated at 18 Watts. The second version has 5 off White & Red Stripe magnets and 1 off gunmetal dummy magnet that are 1 7/16" wide and is rated at 24 Watts. Both flywheels have 4 off Iron Pole-Shoes and 2 off Gunmetal Dummy Pole-Shoes but both types should have the three tapped holes for fixing the dust cover. The 98cc 1F and 2F engines used a similar 6 pole flywheel magneto that also had an aluminium 'dust' cover secured by three screws. The flywheel is the same for both engines and has 4 off Red & White Stripe magnets and 2 off Gunmetal Dummy magnets. The Villiers drawing does not show any Dummy Pole-Shoes. The 1F ( two speed ) version has 2 off lighting coils and the 2F ( single speed ) version has 1 off lighting coil. We then come to the 10D and 6E engines these have an Aluminium 'saucepan' cover secured by spring clips so there are no tapped holes in the brass flywheel. The flywheel is a 6 pole type that has 6 off Red & White Stripe magnets, 5 off Iron Pole-Shoes and one off Gunmetal Dummy Pole-Shoe. The stator on this version has an ignition coil and 2 off lighting coils. There are also other Villiers Motorcycle and Industrial engines that use similar Magneto Flywheels that I do not have any details of, but at least you have the details of the correct one for you 9D engine. As you can see from the above if you use the wrong flywheel with your stator it is unlikely to work correctly. Later Villiers engines used Aluminium Magneto Flywheels that look completely different. Regards Butty Bach View AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachment
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Post by nortonjohn on Aug 13, 2023 17:14:07 GMT
Well the fun and games continue. The flywheel was grit blasted and there is no sign of any colors. The only markings I have found are a M over 18 inside of a circle and a M over a 40 with no circle. May very well be inspection marks. How do you re-magnetize the flywheel? Wonder if a mower shop could do that service? Reguards John
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Post by buttybach1932 on Aug 14, 2023 9:51:31 GMT
Hi Norton John
The number and positions of the Dummy Pole-Shoes and the width of the Magnets should tell you if you have the correct flywheel. If it has Dummy Magnets it is definitely the wrong flywheel for your 9D engine.
You really need a special piece of equipment to re-magnetise the flywheels and it is unlikely that a Mower Shop would have one suitable for a 6 pole Flywheel. Thirty plus years ago I rebuilt a 1950s Italian machine that was designed to re-magnetise Scooter flywheels. The design allowed you to re-magnetise 2 pole, 4 pole and 6 pole Flywheel Magnetos with the magnets on the inside of the flywheel. I also used it to re-magnetise BTH magnetos. The 3 pole Villiers Flywheel Magnetos used on the Junior De-Luxe engines were a pain and I had to dismantle them and re-magnetise the magnets individually using the 2 pole set up then re-assemble the flywheel.
You have to be careful when you re-magnetise flywheels. Before you start you mark up all the North and South Poles. It is also useful to have a gauss meter to check the magnetic strength of each magnet. When you have carried out the re-magnetising you check that all the North and South Poles are correct using a compass and see if the magnetic strength has improved.
If you reverse the magnetic North and South Poles which is easy to do, it will affect the operation of the ignition because the spark will jump the wrong way. It should jump from the plug central electrode to the earth side electrode.
One thing to remember is that the air gap between the Pole Shoes and the Stator Spider has a massive influence on the operation of the Flywheel Magneto. If the Pole Shoes or the Stator Spider are damaged or worn it will affect the ignition spark and generator output. On some designs you can move the Stator Spider to adjust the air gap or to make sure that the air gap is even.
Unfortunately I had to return the Re-Magnetiser to its owner and he disappeared to the wilds of Ireland and refused to give anyone his address and telephone number. I have kept by eye open at Autojumbles but I have never seen one for sale. They are expensive to re-build because of the cost of the replacement capacitors. If I remember correctly the capacitor bank was 3,500 Microfarads at 600 Volts and it jumped when you released the charge/discharge button.
If you do need to get your flywheel re-magnetised, see if there is anyone near you who restores early Italian Scooters and they may have a suitable piece of equipment or know someone who has one.
Regards Butty Bach
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Post by nortonjohn on Aug 14, 2023 13:10:06 GMT
Butty Bach, Well, your very concise reply pretty much put a hole in my idea of re-magnetizing the flywheel. Better to know than to make a mess of things. I did just get a reply from Villiers Services. They said my order is ready to ship, which is good news. What is odd it that they didn't include a copy of the invoice in the correspondence. The last time I was able to use PayPal for payment and this time there wasn't that option. So, progress is being made even if it is slowly.
Again, thanks for your help.
John
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Post by nortonjohn on Sept 29, 2023 14:15:02 GMT
View AttachmentHello Butty Bach, How did I know you would be answering my questions. The screws I am referring to come from the back (engine) side of the mounting plate. I have ordered and received the correct plate mounting screws from Villiers Services. My sympathies to your friend. I too have a friend who is afflicted with the same malady. It's very sad. Reguards John Well with the help from a friend with a mill we were able to get all the coils off. We tried using an impact driver to no effect except tearing up the screwdriver slots. We were able to drill off the heads of the mounting screws and then use a pin punch to drive the coils out with what remained of the screws. Regards John
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Post by nortonjohn on Oct 12, 2023 20:10:53 GMT
Well, I have been stripping down the engine on the 46 ML. A lot of surprises and none of them good. The clutch push rods weren't there, and a piece of welding rod was in its place. The gears are in decent shape which is a surprise. Most of the fasteners were UNI thread. Good thing I have the second engine. The 46 does have the front brake spring box, thank you Butty Bach for sending me pictures of one. Next week I'm going to finish stripping down the frame and get it sand blasted. Powder paint is in my future.
Regards John
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