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Post by paultz on Jul 3, 2023 16:12:53 GMT
Hi. Can anyone recommend a good branded two stroke oil to use in a Villiers 4T engine.
I’m not sure what’s in it and I know some types of oil don’t mix well with others.
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Post by buttybach1932 on Jul 3, 2023 21:59:56 GMT
Hi PaulZ
I am rather conservative about the types of oil that I use in my engines. Two stroke oil was in its early days when your 4T engine was manufactured. Villiers were still recommending using SAE 30 grade engine oil mixed at a ratio of 16 to 1 on a new engine and reduced to 20 to 1 when the engine was run in. Two Stroke Oil ( Castrol 2T ) was an option.
The Two Stroke oils available in the 1960s were mineral based but your can now buy semi-synthetic and fully synthetic Two Stroke oils. The synthetic oils were developed for modern two stroke engines that have caged needle roller big and little end bearings and most have aluminium nickasil coated bores. These modern engines can run at 50 to 1 oil ratios and less to reduce smoke and pollution. Most have throttle linked oil pumps to accurately meter the oil into the engine.
Personally I think it is better to use mineral based two stoke oils in old two strokes. Particularly engines like the 4T which have caged roller big ends and bronze bush little ends. The oil that I would recommend is Morris Golden Film Classic 2T. They also make Morris Ground Force 2T Universal Two Stroke Oil. Both types are suitable for your 4T Villiers. On our older BSA Bantams that have the same type of bearings as the 4T we use an oil ratio of 24 to 1 but I would play safe and start at 20 to 1.
I buy Morris Oil from a dealer at Kempton Park Autojumbles but there are other people around who sell it. If you cannot get Morris oil try to get a mineral based alternative and at worst a semi-synthetic type. Do not worry if it is for Horticultural use, if it is a reputable brand it will still be better than the original 1960s Castrol 2T. For several years I used Wilco Brand mineral Two Stroke oil and never had any problems.
Try to be as accurate as possible when mixing the petrol and oil. I find it is better to put 5 litres of petrol in a jerry can then add the oil using a graduated measuring jug. You can then give it a good shake to properly mix it before putting it in the petrol tank. If you have to fill up at a petrol station on a run, turn off the fuel taps before putting the oil in the petrol tank. Then fill up with petrol and give the bike a good shake before turning on the petrol taps. You look a bit of an idiot shaking the bike but it is better than not being able to start it because you have a carburettor full of oil.
Also when you run a bike on petrol oil mixture it is a good idea to turn off the fuel taps before you stop the engine and use up the mixture in the carburettor and fuel line. If you stop the engine and then turn off the fuel the petrol in the carburettor slowly evaporates and leaves the oil residue behind. This leaves the carburettor full of oily gunge which can block the jets and stick the float needle.
I have not had any problems with modern Two Stroke oils separating out from the petrol but its a good idea to give the bike a good shake if its not been used for a while, before turning on the fuel taps. There is no point in using SAE30 engine oil unless it is the only oil you can get hold of, but its more likely that you will find Two Stroke oil because Halfords and Garages no longer stock straight grade engine oils.
If you use Castor based ( Castrol R30 ) oil in a Two Stroke you have to drain the fuel tank into a jerry can after every race meeting or journey. Then give the jerry can a good shake before putting it back in the tank the next time you want to use the bike. It does smell nice and its a great lubricant but it is not really practical on a road bike because it separates out very quickly.
I hope that the above answers your questions.
Regards
Butty Bach
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Post by 1951superlux on Jul 4, 2023 8:48:06 GMT
I'm the opposite to Butty Bach - I use any old semi-synthetic at 25:1 in Villiers engines. In fact, I use that mix in everything ... well everything apart from the Lohmann. Very old engines that rely on bushes to seal the crankshaft will need an SAE 30 mixed in the correct ratio because they rely on the oil to form the seal, but nearly all post WW2 engines don't need that sort of mollycoddling. The only adverse effect is that the 25:1 flows more freely and has a higher proportion of petrol in the mix, both of which richen the mixture and increase the Villiers's already latent tendency to four-stroke.
Unless you're using a vegetable oil (eg: Castrol R), mixing different oils isn't a problem - they're all dissolved in petrol anyway
I hope someone can remember when it was, but a while ago in The Independent there was an article about how little oil a two-stroke engine actually needed - and the answer was surprisingly little. If I remember correctly, the study was done to see if it was feasible to use two-strokes in aircraft without catastrophic results if they were topped up with the wrong mix.
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Post by paultz on Jul 4, 2023 16:16:48 GMT
Hi and thanks to you both for the great replies.
After reading them, a lot of what you have both said has come back and I remember using Castrol R then putting the remainder in my van cos it didn’t last.
The van smelled brilliant 😀.
Then we used the A747 and remainder of that went on the van as well.
I’ll get some of the modern oil you’ve recommended and mix it at 20/1.
Thanks Again.
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Post by buttybach1932 on Jul 5, 2023 18:00:29 GMT
Hi 1951superlux
I totally agree with you about not using Two Stroke oil in engines with bush main bearings that also act a compression seals. We run a couple of GTP Velocette's which are fitted with metering oil pumps. Both have been converted to use a throttle link to the oil pump. The oil pump supplies oil to the drive side main bearing bush and the uncaged roller big end. The GTP needs SAE40 engine oil for the lubrication system to work correctly.
My father-in-law tried using Two Stroke oil in the GTP oil tank and this produced huge volumes of smoke from the exhausts. He then tried running on 16 to 1 petrol / oil mix using Two Stroke oil and turned off the oil pump. This cured the smoke problem but after a few miles the engine seized on the main bearings. Now it is running on SAE40 oil with the throttle linked oil pump set up correctly, the smoke output is not too embarrassing and there have been no problems with engine seizures.
I have not run my 247cc Villiers X-A engine fitted with a Villiers Mark 1 Autolube system but that will definitely need SAE30 oil as Villiers recommend, because the oil film in the bush main bearings seals the timed ports that provide the pressure to operate the Autolube system. It will be good to get it running so that I can compare the engine performance with the GTP Velocette.
As the Velocette GTP and Villiers X-A engines do not use petrol / oil mix there are no problems with with oil separating out from the fuel.
Regards
Butty Bach
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d7er
New Member
I'm not that new, I re-joined four years ago. I volunteered for the south Northamptonshire area rep'
Posts: 46
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Post by d7er on Jul 25, 2023 11:26:55 GMT
I used to repair lawnmowers, I used a place named Central Spares used their 1 gallon containers of semi synthetic for decades, 50-1 as well into the bargain, mixed it up for Stihl chainsaws and strimmers in for repair, then 'borrowed' the odd gallon from my business to keep my Bantams and Norman Nippy etc mobile, hardly any smoke at all and fuel stays good for a year or more. Was about £15 a gallon, a lot cheaper than the big companies' similar products, especially those little "one shot for a gallon" pots!
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Post by nortonjohn on Feb 2, 2024 13:43:12 GMT
A friend just picked up a 1948 Velocette GTP. Very complete and is just cleaning the tanks out. The fuel tank has 2 compartments one for gas and one for two stroke oil. And I thought the Japs had invented the automatic oil feed! Anyway, he was asking what kind of two stroke oil he should use? He doesn't want to use a synthetic oil. Thanks for your help. John in Texas. Here is a picture of his latest find.  |
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Post by 1951superlux on Feb 2, 2024 14:30:20 GMT
A friend just picked up a 1948 Velocette GTP. Very complete and is just cleaning the tanks out. The fuel tank has 2 compartments one for gas and one for two stroke oil. And I thought the Japs had invented the automatic oil feed! Villiers had introduced an automatic two-stroke lubrication long before this ... around 1924 I think. (ButtyBach also mention this above - but didn't specify the date so you wouldn't realise how early it was if you didn't know the Villiers engine codes.)
The pre-WW2 Excelsior Autobyks also had a two compartment tank - but nothing as clever as automatic lubrication. The oil compartment just had a tap on the bottom so you could run the oil into the measure on the fuel cap, then pour iit into the other compartment before adding the petrol!
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Post by buttybach1932 on Feb 2, 2024 18:03:00 GMT
Hi John It's definitely a post-war model because it is fitted with a magneto. The pre-war models had coil ignition. Do not use two stroke oil in a Velocette GTP. The engine has bronze bush main bearings which need a fairly thick oil to maintain crankcase compression. My father-in-law has two GTP Velocette's a 1930 three speed hand gearchange model and a mid 1930's four speed foot change model. About 40 years ago when my father-in-law had rebuilt the 1930 GTP he tried running it on two stroke oil. The clouds of smoke out of the exhausts were impressive but very embarrassing. He then decided to try running it on petrol / oil mix using two stroke oil. After a few miles the engine seized on the plain main bearings due to a lack of lubrication. We now run both bikes on SAE 40 motor oil. This is the equivalent of the old Castrol XXL oil rating specified by Velocette's in the bikes handbook. In the UK we use Morris Golden Film SAE 40 low detergent motor oil. The Classic Bike and Car people in the USA must use something similar. As the GTP is a late model it will have the throttle linked version of the oil pump. The bent spoke that Velocette used can cause the oil pump to jam at maximum output and can also make the throttle feel horrible. I have modified both of my father-in-laws bikes to a twin cable system with a Triumph type throttle cable junction box under the petrol tank. The GTP is a nice little bike to ride with good handling and reasonable brakes. The worst part of the bike is the engine. Velocette advertised it as a 60 mph machine but 45mph is about the maximum useable top speed. Years ago I was riding the 1930 GTP in a parade around a foggy Mallory Park circuit. Up ahead was a 197cc Villiers engined bike so I decided to chase it down. I was catching the 197 when the engine vibration became horrendous ( I though the piston was coming through the petrol tank ) so I backed off and enjoyed the cruise around. I have never worked out why the coil ignition GTP has a manual ignition advance retard lever. We normally run our bikes fully advanced. If you retard the lever the engine looses power. In theory the engine should need less advance at high revs ( the opposite of a four stroke ) but on the GTP it does not appear to work. One other tip is that you need a fairly hard spark plug. If your engine is fitted with a 14mm plug this is not a problem but hard 18mm plugs are not easy to find. We use ancient 18mm Lodge H3 plugs in our engines. An 18mm NGK A7 or AB7 would be OK but they are no longer manufactured and old stock is drying up in the UK. Best of luck with your new project Regards Butty Bach    |
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Post by buttybach1932 on Feb 3, 2024 17:13:42 GMT
Hi 1951superlux You are spot on with the date for the Villiers Autolube system. I checked in my 1920's Villiers Spare Parts List and the first engine to use the Autolube system was the 172cc Sport introduced in 1924. The earlier 269cc, 247cc and 343cc engines used Semi-Automatic drip feed lubrication. All the 147cc engines used Petroil ( I part Oil to 16 parts Petrol ) for engine lubrication. From 1926 on the 172cc and 196cc Supersport , 247cc Mk IX-A and Mk X-A plus the 343cc Mk IX-B and Mk X-B engines used the Autolube system. When Villiers started to use ball race or roller main bearings in their new generation 1930s engines they could not use the Autolube system because it relied on timed ports in the bronze main bearings to pressurise the oil tank from crankcase pressure. The new generation engines used Petroil lubrication. Some of the older engine designs like the 249cc Mk XIV-A and 346cc Mk XIV-B were available with Autolube or Petroil lubrication presumably to cut costs. Some Villiers engines continued to use the Autolube system until 1940. For instance the 249cc Watercooled engines used by SOS. Regards Butty Bach   |
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d7er
New Member
I'm not that new, I re-joined four years ago. I volunteered for the south Northamptonshire area rep'
Posts: 46
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Post by d7er on Feb 19, 2024 19:59:06 GMT
Just bought a gallon of Aztec two stroke oil, not opened up yet, but about £17.50 plus postage from my trade supplier, container says it's red, just like the old stuff from Central, I'll be maybe giving my opinions on it, but I reckon it to be a decent all round two stroke oil for any 2 stroke engine.
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