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Post by paultz on Apr 25, 2024 12:10:39 GMT
I bought the bike last year and it’s been stood in the garage since. It started ok when I got it but won’t start now after being parked up for 8 months. The battery is charged and I’ve fitted new plugs and fuel is getting through when carb tickler is used. I’ve tried with the choke on and off but it doesn’t fire. Could the crank cases be flooded and should these be drained after it’s been stood for so long. Should I be looking at the timing, points gap etc. I’m out of touch with these engines so I’m just looking for a few pointers from you guys before I start looking into it. I’ve not tried bump starting yet so is that worth a try first. Also, the front side/parking light has just been soldered in place and does anyone know where I can get a correct bulb holder from. The Wipac light switch on the headlamp has also given up the ghost, probably because of lack of use and I’ve ordered a new unit c/w the 9 pin connector and the black switch from Villiers Services. I’ve not had a British 2 stroke for 50 years so I’m out of touch with these old bikes and any advice would be greatly appreciated. Regards Paul.
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Post by buttybach1932 on Apr 26, 2024 16:28:49 GMT
Hi paultz IGNITION.I presume that your FB Sports Cruiser 91 has a Villiers 2T or 4T engine with the standard motorcycle type generator and original contact breaker type ignition ? If it has the ignition is not powered from the battery. The generator has four low tension coils. The low tension coils at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock power the energy transfer ( AC ) type ignition coils and the low tension coils at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock charge the battery and power the lighting system etc. The first thing to check is that you have a spark. Remove the spark plugs, rest them on the cylinder heads to make sure the plug bodies are earthed and kick the engine over and check to see if both plugs spark. It helps if you carry out this test in low light conditions to make the sparks more visible. If there are no sparks on either plug the problem could be the ignition switch on the crankcase, This is a bit of an odd device because it shorts the low tension power supply to the two sets of contact breaker points together, which prevents any sparks because one pair of points is always closed, this earths the ignition system. Disconnect the switch from both contact breakers to see if it solves the problem. Check the contact breaker points to see if they are corroded. This can happen in damp conditions. Clean the points with fine 'silicone carbide paper' 280 grit is about right. If the points are badly pitted you will have to use a fine swiss file of fine diamond dust file to remove the pits. If you have a test meter check the resistance across each set of points when they are closed. If it is more that 0.5 ohms the points are not making good contact. The specified contact breaker points gap is 0.012" to 0.015". Another potential source of problems is the wiring connector on the engine casing. Are the connections clean and corrosion free and are they making good contact. Please remember that the recommended spark plug gap is 0.018" to 0.025" but I would recommend keeping them at 0.018" to 0.020" because it will give a better spark at kickstart speed when the ET magneto is not providing a very high voltage output. Finally on the ignition side be careful what sparking plugs and ignition suppressors are fitted. A lot of modern plugs like the NGK have a 5000 Ohm resistor built into the plug body. There are also plugs with auxiliary spark gaps built into the plug body. Both types should be avoided on machines with magneto ignition. Fit plug caps that do not have suppression resistors. The less resistance there is between the ignition coil and the spark plug the better spark you will have at kickstart speeds. CARBURATION.
I presume your 2T or 4T engine is fitted with either a Villiers S22 or S25 carburettor ? If you operate the carburettor tickler can you flood the carburettor. If you cannot there is a problem with the fuel feed. It could be a sticking fuel inlet needle in the carburettor or a blocked filter in the carburettor inlet banjo. Or it could also be blocked filters on the fuel taps. When you use the choke and kick the engine over are the plugs wet with fuel / oil mixture or do they smell of petrol. If the plugs are dry and there is no smell of petrol on the plugs the carburettor pilot jet may be blocked. Strip the carburettor and clean all the jets and fuel and air passages. GENERAL.
If you have a spark, fuel and compression the engine should start. With two stroke engines heed the wise words of Wipac George, 'always check the spark plug first'. A friend had a problem with his D14/4 Bantam and they spent ages trying to get it to go. Finally they changed the spark plug which appeared to spark OK when it was out of the cylinder and the bike started first kick. Remember it takes a higher voltage to get a spark under engine compression so the voltage can short across the plug insulator instead of creating a spark. Best of Luck Butty Bach
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Post by paultz on Apr 26, 2024 16:46:24 GMT
Thanks very much for all the information and I’ll go through all the points you’ve mentioned. It’s a 4t engine with standard points ignition and as far as I know, standard carburettor. I’ve put new NGK plugs in from Villiers and these are the same as the ones that were already fitted. It’s got brown NGK plug caps and if you can recommend any others and where to get them, that would be great. The plugs are wet when I get them out and there’s a spark there. Before I do anything do you think it’s worth trying to bump start it. I’ve not tried that yet because it’s not that easy to get it from my garage up a steep slope and then back up the road if it doesn’t start.
Thanks again and Regards.
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Post by buttybach1932 on Apr 27, 2024 19:19:42 GMT
Hi Paul The spark plugs that Villiers specify for the 4T engine are: Lodge HH14 or Champion L7. My 1978 NGK booklet gives their B6HS as the equivalent but you could also use the B6HV which is a better specification fine wire central electrode plug. Both are 14mm by ½" reach. If the spark plugs are wet I would remove the crankcase drain plugs and spark plugs and kick the engine over a few times with the fuel and ignition turned off. This should blow out any excess liquid fuel. Please note that liquid petrol is difficult to ignite in an engine compared with an atomised fuel air mix. I would strip the carburettor and check that the pilot jet is clear this is the jet that provides the atomised fuel air mix when you kick the engine over. Flooding the engine with the tickler puts liquid fuel into the engine. Clean and dry the spark plugs. I give mine a wash out with brake cleaner then dry them before re-fitting. Push starting will sometimes start an engine that will not kickstart, but this is quite often because the engine is worn out and either has crankcase air leaks or very little compression. Push starting turns the engine over faster and allows the engine to lift the fuel from the carburettor jets and compress the mixture. Regards Butty Bach
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Post by 1951superlux on Apr 28, 2024 8:46:10 GMT
Several old two-stroke owners (that's owners of old two-strokes rather than old owners of two-strokes ... though they could be that too) avoid NGK altogether. The theory is that NGK plugs have a matt insulator that oil residue is more likely to adhere to than the shiny insulator on (say) a Champion L86. With the more oily fuel mixes, this means that the NGK don't last as long before the spark starts tracking down the insulator. I don't know how true all this is, but it was advice I followed and never regretted.
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Post by buttybach1932 on Apr 28, 2024 13:56:43 GMT
Hi 1951superlux
I have not had any problems with NGK spark plugs, but you could have problems because the manufacturers equivalents are not exactly the same heat range. There is no way that NGK actually tested their plugs on old British two strokes, but NGKs do have a reputation for a wide heat range.
Many years ago I had a problem when I serviced my cousins Suzuki GT185 and changed the plugs from the original NGK B7HS to the Champion equivalent L82. The Suzuki did not like the Champion plugs and we changed back to NGKs. However if I had tried a different heat range Champion plug it would probably have resolved the problem.
Personally I like the fine wire central electrode plugs in two strokes and use a Champion N4G 'Gold Palladium' plug in my D14/4 Bantam engine. This plug gives absolutely no problems and just has a clean and gap check at annual services. The problem is that Champion and Lodge plugs are now difficult to obtain, there is some 'new old stock' around. Trouble is the grades you want are usually sold out.
Now we are running on lead free fuel the the plug whiskering problems have disappeared so using a fine wire 'Gold Palladium' or 'Platinum' plug is not as big advantage, but they do give better starting.
Back in the early 1950s my dad was a Rolls Royce Merlin engine fitter on a Lincoln ( later version of the Lancaster ) bomber squadron. At the time his personal transport was a James Captain fitted with a Villiers 6E engine. As he had high octane Avgas and paraffin easily available he mixed the two to make a useable fuel for the Villiers 6E engine. Because of the high tetra-ethyl-lead content of the Avgas he had to use a platinum electrode plug to prevent plug whiskering. He cut the radio interference shrouding off a platinum electrode aircraft plug and silver soldered on a terminal screw. The other modification was to fit a Bowden carburettor. This allowed easier mixture adjustments when he had to use low octane pump petrol.
Regards Butty Bach
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Post by paultz on Apr 28, 2024 17:49:57 GMT
Regards and Thanks again Butty Bach.👍
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Post by paultz on May 2, 2024 17:18:40 GMT
Hi and thanks for your help and I’ve got the bike running now 😀. I’ve sorted the lights issue. The points were way out, about 25 thou and I’ve stet these to 14/15. I’ve set the new plugs to 18 thou. I’ve drained the crank cases and couldn’t believe how much oil was in there. I’m guessing about a full egg cup full maybe more. One of the crank case drain plug sealing washers is missing so I’m going to try to source that and buy a few. The 2 sets of points are different so I’ll try to source some new ones and replace both sets. I don’t think the ammeter is the correct size so that’s another thing for my list to find. The only problem now is the bike won’t tick over unless I hold the throttle it cuts out so any advice on this would be appreciated. Also, I want to get the baffles out to clean them and the silencers out but try as I might, they won’t come budge. I’ve removed the retaining bolts on the end of the silencers but they won’t budge at all so is there anything else that’s holding them in at the other end? Thanks again. Regards Paul
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Post by paultz on May 5, 2024 18:15:06 GMT
Hi, How do I get the baffles out to clean them on a Villiers 4t engined bike. I’ve removed the end bolts of the silencers but the baffles won’t budge at all. Is there something holding them in at the other end.
Also, the engine won’t stay running on tick over and apart from adjusting this from the cable, I’m not sure what else to do.
Any help would be great.
Regards, Paul.
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Post by buttybach1932 on May 6, 2024 17:11:59 GMT
Hi paulz I have never cleaned the exhaust baffles in a Villiers 2T or 4T but I understand that they should be removable for cleaning. Looking on the 'Armour Motor Products' website both their replacement silencers ( seamed and un-seamed ) have removable baffles. However there may be aftermarket replacement exhausts about that do not have removable baffles. I think it is more likely that the baffles are being held in by carbon build up. I have had problems with BSA Bantams where the carbon build up is so bad that the baffles cannot be removed without damaging them. One old solution was to clean the exhausts using Caustic Soda. Attached is a extract from an old Haynes BSA Bantam manual that describes the cleaning process. Caustic Soda is still available from B&Q, Screwfix and other suppliers. Be very careful and wear eye protection and rubber or nitrile gloves. It's a horrible messy job which is why people avoid doing it. You will need to make some waterproof bungs for the exhaust pipe ends of the silencers stand them vertical in a bucket or bowl that does not leak and fill the silencers with the Caustic Soda solution. Leave them overnight and hopefully it will allow the baffles to be removed for proper cleaning. With regard to the tick-over speed on Villiers engines. The only Villiers carburettors that have throttle stop screws to adjust the tick-over speed are some late S25 carburettors used on Microcars. It is also possible to add a throttle stop screw to S25 motorcycle carburettors that have the later body casting. The tick-over speed is adjusted on the throttle cable and this can be a problem because the tick-over speed can vary when the handlebars are turned. I had this problem on my 1929 Ariel which is still fitted with it's original 1929 Amal Type 6 carburettor. It was a real nuisance because at right turns on a tee junction the engine would rev too high and there was a horrible graunch as you selected first gear with the hand gear change. To solve the problem I have drilled a small hole in the rear of the throttle slide to provide the required tick over speed and the throttle shuts fully with a small amount of free play in the cable. It's a fiddly job because you have to carefully work your way up to the required hole size and test each time. I used 'Number Drills' that that only have a few thousands of a inch variation between sizes. The only down side is a slight flat spot as you open the throttle, you have to lift the throttle valve about 1/8" before it starts to open. I got this idea from a Velocette Owners Club member who had a Velocette Thruxton fitted with an Amal GP racing carburettor. Best of luck. Regards Butty Bach
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Post by paultz on May 7, 2024 21:28:14 GMT
Thanks again for the information. I’m going to look at this tomorrow and I’ve been working on the bike today. I’ve removed the heads and barrels to fit new gaskets and do a bit of an overhaul on the top end. I’ve got a new gasket set from Villiers and I’m nearly done fitting this. The old gaskets were fitted using some sort of sealant which I’ve removed from all contact surfaces using a a plastic type of scraper and that’s been removed now after a couple of hours. I’ve fitted the new gaskets with a smear of grease and no sealant. It wasn’t easy to remove the carburettor. The air filter made this difficult but I persevered and I’m sure there must be a knack to this. When I removed the down pipes, there was a few different copper type seals in place which I’ve removed plus there’s a further type of gasket/seal that I’m going to put back after the new copper ones that came with the gasket set. It seems like they’ve been added to minimise the gap but I’m guessing at this. I’m happy with the progress today and I’m going to try tomorrow again to remove the baffles to clean them up but if they don’t come out I’ll just carry on with it as is. I’m enjoying all this and re learning as I go along 👍
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Post by buttybach1932 on May 8, 2024 10:14:26 GMT
Hi paulz
Best of luck with your engine top end rebuild. Please note if you remove the inlet manifold and cylinder barrels there is a procedure in the workshop manual to align the barrels by fitting the inlet manifold before fitting the cylinder heads and torqueing them down.
I have a 'pdf' copy of a 4T Workshop Manual but it is a 28 Megabyte file which is too large to post or 'e' mail. But I can 'Post' extracts in 'jpeg' format.
Regards Butty Bach
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Post by paultz on May 12, 2024 16:05:22 GMT
Hi Butty Bach,
I’ve finished the top end and it starts as it should do now and it sounds a lot better. I’ve not cleaned the carbon off the piston tops as the circlip pliers I bought weren’t that good so I’ve left the piston’s as they were but they do need a clean up soon. I couldn’t remove the baffles so I’ll have a go at these again sometime when I’ve got a decent set of circlip pliers and some caustic soda for the baffles/silencer decoke.
While I had the tank off it’s gained some paint chips on the side where it’s been knocked against something on the garage floor (not by me) and I’m probably going to have a go at a full tank repaint.
I can get a decent finish with rattle cans but it’s red with a grey/silver centre panel on each side together with gold pinstripe and I think I’ll have to make a couple of templates to get this right.
Or if I can find someone to paint it at a decent price that would be better if anyone can recommend someone.
Regards Paul.
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Post by buttybach1932 on May 13, 2024 10:08:13 GMT
Hi paulz
Glad to hear that the starting problem is resolved.
Be careful what paint you use on the petrol tank. Modern petrol is a nightmare as it makes a good paint stripper. You may not intend to get petrol on the paint but it always happens. Old British filler caps never seal perfectly especially when you have a full tank of fuel.
I understand that two pack epoxy paint is the most resistant but they also use a lacquer to provide protection. Speak to someone who paints motorcycle petrol tanks as they should be able to advise the best solution.
Regards Butty Bach
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Post by paultz on May 13, 2024 12:15:07 GMT
Hi paulz Glad to hear that the starting problem is resolved. Be careful what paint you use on the petrol tank. Modern petrol is a nightmare as it makes a good paint stripper. You may not intend to get petrol on the paint but it always happens. Old British filler caps never seal perfectly especially when you have a full tank of fuel. I understand that two pack epoxy paint is the most resistant but they also use a lacquer to provide protection. Speak to someone who paints motorcycle petrol tanks as they should be able to advise the best solution. Regards Butty Bach Thanks for that, I’ll see if I can find someone to do it properly. Regards, Paul.
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