|
Post by nortonjohn on Sept 15, 2023 13:56:01 GMT
Hi Norton John. I would have been surprised if the square footrest bar was straight and you could get it out easily. Bikes have normally been dropped several times in their life and its the first thing to get bent. Fortunately its a straightforward and fairly cheep repair. With regard to the centre stand springs I do not have any idea about the length and coil diameter but attached are a couple of pictures of the 2023 Founders Day bike that might help you. Sorry about the sun glare but we are not used to it in England. Regards Butty Bach View AttachmentView AttachmentButty, You make me laugh with your sun glare comment. I will measure the distance and see if I can find a suitable spring at the local hardware store. Thanks for the pictures. John
|
|
|
Post by nortonjohn on Sept 18, 2023 16:20:42 GMT
Any idea where the center stand springs hook to on the frame? I looked at the pictures that Butty had sent and it leaves me scratching my head.
Regards Norton John
|
|
|
Post by buttybach1932 on Sept 18, 2023 18:00:36 GMT
Hi Norton John This is a complete guess. There are two small brackets, Item No 23 on the attached Page 11 from the 1947 ML Parts Manual. From the photographs I think the brackets are mounted on the bottom engine mounting bracket one each side of the bracket / engine lug. Just a guess but I cannot see any other position that the brackets described as 'PLATE CENTRE STAND RETURN SPRING ANCHORING' could mount on. Have a play and see if it works. I should have taken a few more photographs when I had the opportunity. Regards Butty Bach
|
|
|
Post by buttybach1932 on Sept 19, 2023 11:00:31 GMT
Hi Norton John I had another look at the stand problem this morning because I could not understand how the rear brake pedal. footrests and centre stand pivot worked. After looking at everything ML that I can find I think I have sorted it out. The front round hole in the frame lug is the pivot point for the rear brake pedal. The square hole is for the footrest / centre stand mounting bar. There are a 'pair' of brackets Item 21 'PLAIN CENTRE STAND ANCHORING' with square holes that fit on the square footrest bar and provide the pivot points for the centre stand. So that the centre stand pivot point is to the rear and above the footrest mounting bar The centre stand pivots on two steel bushes Item 20 'BUSH CENTRE STAND EYE' and is fixed by Items 24, 25, 26 & 27 nuts, bolts, plain washers and shake-proof washers. On the 1947 bikes there appears to be an additional centre stand clip Item 28 'SPRING CENTRE STAND RETAINING' that looks like a vintage type rear stand clip and is presumably fitted to stop the centre stand rattling about over bumps. It must clip over one of the round cross bars on the centre stand and as it only has Items 28 and 29 bolts & shake-proof washers to retain it there must be two tapped holes in the frame. I presume they must be in the frame lug at the bottom of the seat pillar. Either Item 21 or the footrest hangers act as stops for the centre stand. To stop it going too far over-centre . Wear on the square bar or in the square holes will cause problems and the stand will go so far over-centre it reaches a point where the stand is not tall enough. BSA D1, B3 and D5 Bantams suffer from a similar problem. I am now fairly certain that the centre stand return springs fix to Item 23 'PLATE CENTRE STAND RETURN SPRING ANCHORING' and these plates fit either side of the bottom engine mounting lug and are retained by the engine mounting bolt. It looks as if the centre stand on the 'Founders Day' ML has been modified. Two brackets for the centre stand return springs have been added. I think the springs should just clip over the central bar on the centre stand. The modification may have been carried out because the available springs were too short. Hope that the above sorts out your problem. Regards Butty Bach
|
|
|
Post by nortonjohn on Sept 20, 2023 15:42:29 GMT
Hi Norton John I had another look at the stand problem this morning because I could not understand how the rear brake pedal. footrests and centre stand pivot worked. After looking at everything ML that I can find I think I have sorted it out. The front round hole in the frame lug is the pivot point for the rear brake pedal. The square hole is for the footrest / centre stand mounting bar. There are a 'pair' of brackets Item 21 'PLAIN CENTRE STAND ANCHORING' with square holes that fit on the square footrest bar and provide the pivot points for the centre stand. So that the centre stand pivot point is to the rear and above the footrest mounting bar The centre stand pivots on two steel bushes Item 20 'BUSH CENTRE STAND EYE' and is fixed by Items 24, 25, 26 & 27 nuts, bolts, plain washers and shake-proof washers. On the 1947 bikes there appears to be an additional centre stand clip Item 28 'SPRING CENTRE STAND RETAINING' that looks like a vintage type rear stand clip and is presumably fitted to stop the centre stand rattling about over bumps. It must clip over one of the round cross bars on the centre stand and as it only has Items 28 and 29 bolts & shake-proof washers to retain it there must be two tapped holes in the frame. I presume they must be in the frame lug at the bottom of the seat pillar. Either Item 21 or the footrest hangers act as stops for the centre stand. To stop it going too far over-centre . Wear on the square bar or in the square holes will cause problems and the stand will go so far over-centre it reaches a point where the stand is not tall enough. BSA D1, B3 and D5 Bantams suffer from a similar problem. I am now fairly certain that the centre stand return springs fix to Item 23 'PLATE CENTRE STAND RETURN SPRING ANCHORING' and these plates fit either side of the bottom engine mounting lug and are retained by the engine mounting bolt. It looks as if the centre stand on the 'Founders Day' ML has been modified. Two brackets for the centre stand return springs have been added. I think the springs should just clip over the central bar on the centre stand. The modification may have been carried out because the available springs were too short. Hope that the above sorts out your problem. Regards Butty Bach View Attachment
|
|
|
Post by nortonjohn on Sept 20, 2023 15:51:54 GMT
Butty, The item marked as 23 PLATE CENTER STABD RETURN SPRIN ANCHORING attaches to the stand itself. The guy in NM has a complete one, I will contact him and see it he can enlighten me on how it goes. I need to straighten out the stand on the 46 and build new pivot bushings. Here are pictures of both stands. Again, thanks for your help. John
|
|
|
Post by buttybach1932 on Sept 20, 2023 21:26:14 GMT
Hi Norton John I think James must have modified the centre stand at some point, but the picture in the 1947 Parts Book does not reflect the change. The only way the brackets can be fitted to the centre stand is by cutting and re-welding. They would not have sold the brackets as a separate spare part. They would have been supplied as a complete centre stand assembly. I am fairly certain that Item 23 are the brackets that fit either side of the bottom frame / engine mounting lug, but I could be wrong. The attached photographs below are not very good quality but it looks like the centre stand return springs attached directly to the centre bar on the centre stand. But this was the first batch produced after the war and the centre stand could have been modified on later models Regards Butty Bach
|
|
|
Post by nortonjohn on Sept 21, 2023 12:42:35 GMT
Butty Bush, Well, I am going to meet the James ML owner in New Mexico this weekend. So, I hope that the center stand questions will be answered. I hope he brings it to the show, that will make things so much easier. I agree with you that James having the stand side spring attachment for sale when you would have to cut the cross bar off to install them. The two stands I have do have those parts on the stand, so it is puzzling. Cheers Norton John
|
|
|
Post by nortonjohn on Sept 28, 2023 14:08:41 GMT
Butty Bush, I had the chance to meet with the 43 James ML owner in New Mexico at the local clubs annual show and swap. I think that the spring bracket that is listed in the parts catalog Might fit not on the stand as I had thought but forward of the pivot point for the stand. I will have to build a pair of them and see if my assumption is correct. The guy in NM didn't bring his ML to the show but has offered to take pictures of his. I got the cold rolled square stock. Now I need to 1) fit it into the hole and make sure the length is correct and 2) have a frined with a 4 jaw chuck for his lathe to turn down the ends for threading. Story and pictures to follow.
I also brought home a 56 Norton Dominator 88 to work on. It has been stripped down to boxes full of parts. Should be interesting.
Cheers Norton John
|
|
|
Post by buttybach1932 on Sept 29, 2023 10:38:26 GMT
Hi Norton John
At least the centre stand spring brackets are easy to make. They were probably made from 1/8" steel plate.
A lathe is almost essential when you are restoring old motorcycles. I was lucky my 1950s Churchill Cub came from the Training School at Dodge Trucks for scrap value £25. It still has the Chrysler Pentastar badge and machine number on it. It's very useful for threading because it has a clutch so it is easy to control when you are threading with a die box. It came with several chucks and other kit but it was in a poor state ( abused by the Apprentices ). Fortunately my father-in-law worked in the machine tool industry and he rebuilt it when he retired, as he needed a lathe to replace his 1902 Drummond.
We also have a 1942 Myford MF Precision Lathe. This is a useful little lathe for small jobs and is in good condition, as it has never seen much use. It came out of GCHQ at Cheltenham many years ago via a friend who worked there.
Best of luck with your Norton Dominator. The only trouble with bikes in boxes is there are always parts missing. I have been helping a chap in out local BTSC Section who is restoring his dads James K7T Commando. It was dismantled around 1960 and has been involved in several house moves. It is surprising how many small parts have gone AWOL. Some of them are a problem to find but he is slowly finding the missing pieces.
Regards Butty Bach
|
|
|
Post by nortonjohn on Sept 29, 2023 14:00:24 GMT
I was given a Grizzly hobbyist lathe. That came with a 3-jaw chuck. For most purposes that works well but not when it comes to holding square stock. Speake of that, the square stock showed up last week. I ordered 2 pieces of 1/2 x 1/2 x 12'' got 2 pieces that are 2 feet long. Went to fit it into the hole on the frame and it wouldn't fit. Wasn't quite square. Luckily, I have a friend with a mill and a 4-jaw lathe. I will go over to another friend's place and use his press to straighten the center stand mounts. No reason to wear my welcome out by being a pest at just one guys place.
I am picking up some compartmentalized boxes and will start to sort out what is and isn't there with the Norton. I am lucky in that I have a 1958 Dominator 88 so I can look at mine to see how it all goes together.
Regards John
|
|
|
Post by nortonjohn on Oct 4, 2023 15:13:46 GMT
I was given a Grizzly hobbyist lathe. That came with a 3-jaw chuck. For most purposes that works well but not when it comes to holding square stock. Speake of that, the square stock showed up last week. I ordered 2 pieces of 1/2 x 1/2 x 12'' got 2 pieces that are 2 feet long. Went to fit it into the hole on the frame and it wouldn't fit. Wasn't quite square. Luckily, I have a friend with a mill and a 4-jaw lathe. I will go over to another friend's place and use his press to straighten the center stand mounts. No reason to wear my welcome out by being a pest at just one guys place. I am picking up some compartmentalized boxes and will start to sort out what is and isn't there with the Norton. I am lucky in that I have a 1958 Dominator 88 so I can look at mine to see how it all goes together. Regards John I am not sure what made me think the square stock was 1/2" when it's 7/16" got that in over the weekend. Need to clean my glasses, I think! Going over to a friends place later today and use his press to straighten the center stand mounts. Then we will use his tire machine to mount a rear tire for the Norton. Then use his truing stand and true the front wheel. He has all the toys. I'm blessed to have such good friends. Regards John
|
|
|
Post by buttybach1932 on Oct 4, 2023 17:45:19 GMT
Hi John
The old adage applies 'Measure Twice, Cut Once'. I had fun working out what size hexagon brass bar I needed to make a throttle valve extension for my 1930 Villiers Middle-Weight carburettor. I now know it should be 7/32" across flats, but I purchased two pieces that were the wrong size. Never mind they will come in useful sometime.
I have always fitted tyres by hand and the only time that I have struggled is fitting Avon Roadrunner's on the 17" WM1 rims on my CD200 Honda. The Roadrunners have a very wide well base bead and on the WM1 rim there is virtually no room for the valve stem to pass between the beads. My fingers were really sore by the time I had fitted two new tyres.
The worse motorcycle tyres to fit were the old 'triple duty' sidecar tyres. When I was young there were a lot of 'bloodies' and 'buggers' uttered by my dad when he had to fit a new one.
It's very helpful if you have decent equipment. When we remanufactured a blown up 1926 Blackburne CTA TT engine I had to make a balancing rig to balance the new flywheels and a valve spring test rig, to sort out a set of valve springs that had suitable valve seated and full lift poundages. You can get over most problems if you think about them.
Keep us updated on your progress. I need to get back in the workshop, now that my garden does not need so much attention.
Regards Butty Bach
|
|
|
Post by buttybach1932 on Oct 24, 2023 17:18:36 GMT
Hi John Your comment about the Villiers 9D engine rebuild a while back prompted me to have a look at the YouTube videos on 'Tweeds Garage'. The problem that he had with an incorrect clutch pressure plate really bugged me because I could not work out what engine the incorrect pressure plate came from. I had another look at it today and Web Captured a couple of still images. I was fairly certain that it was a Villiers part but it did not look like anything that Villiers manufactured Post-War. I wondered if it was for a Pre-War unit construction 197cc 3E as I do not have any information on that engine. Then I noticed that there were machined recesses around the six stud holes, but they were on the wrong side of the pressure plate. I also noted that the centre thimble for the clutch pushrod was a separate part. Then the light dawned. It is actually a pressure plate of the type used on the two plate clutches for 10D and 6E engines, but the centre thimble has been reversed and the pressure plate installed the wrong way around, with the dome bowed out instead of in. It would not fit the correct way round in the one plate 9D clutch. It also explains why the surface that was running against the friction plate was not flat. A strange problem to find in an engine but typical of old bodges. It makes you wonder what happened to the original flat 9D pressure plate. Regards Butty Bach
|
|
|
Post by nortonjohn on Nov 6, 2023 14:26:54 GMT
I have removed the front forks on the 46 ML125. Taking pictures and notes as I go. Hope to finish stripping the frame down later today or tomorrow. Then off to the sand blasters and then the powder painters. Until I get that done the rest of the project is on hold. Need to set the front fender stays repaired and straightened too. Alway something. Went over to Santa Fe New Mexico last month and got to ride my friends Flying Flea. That was fun and I expect that the James will be as much fun as that.
Cheers John
|
|