Vince
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Post by Vince on May 16, 2024 13:44:55 GMT
So I took my James Colonel out for a run yesterday and after half a mile I turned back home due to strange noises coming from the engine. I can only describe the noise as a fast rattle, but it wasn't continuous. So when I got home I checked the rear chain (in case it was loose and banging against something) and took off the clutch cover to check the primary chain. All good there too.
The bike starts fine and when on it's stand the rattle comes in only intermittently / occasionally, especially if I run the engine faster.
I'm thinking an engine strip down might be the order of the day but before I leap in I wonder if anyone could suggest what it might be? I thought my next step might be to take the head and barrel off to check piston, bore, rings and play in the con-rod.
Any ideas anyone? Any experience with the 1H engine and a possible strip down? All suggestions welcome!
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Post by buttybach1932 on May 17, 2024 9:54:25 GMT
Hi Vince I have no experience of the 1H and 2H engines, but could it be that old BSA Bantam bugbear of a loose flywheel cover plate. Regards Butty Bach  |
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Vince
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Post by Vince on May 17, 2024 10:42:12 GMT
Thanks for the suggestion Buttybach. I'll let you know what I find once I've delved further into the engine!
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Vince
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Post by Vince on May 20, 2024 13:11:04 GMT
Thanks for the suggestion Buttybach. I'll let you know what I find once I've delved further into the engine! Well I think I've found the problem but can only speculate on the cause. It looks like a piston ring has failed, took the edge of the piston off as it exited the exhaust port Fortunately the barrel is undamaged. I wonder what caused the piston ring to fail. Having waggled (technical term) the piston about it seems to be a fair bit of play in the conrod. What would one expect, generally speaking for play in the conrod.?
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Post by buttybach1932 on May 21, 2024 11:42:47 GMT
Hi vince.
Very nasty. It looks as if a ring has snagged in a port. Was it because the ring peg failed or was the piston fitted back to front ?
Regards the big end. You may have a small amount of sideways rock at the little end but you should not have any noticeable up and down play when you push and pull the conrod with the crankpin at TDC.
On the D14/4 engine that is now in my Wassell Bantam there was about 1 thou of up and down movement. As it was going to be used in a bike for Club fun Trials I decided not to worry. We used it for a number of Trials in a rigid D1 then swopped it to the Wassell Bantam chassis and used it as a Trail bike for club runs. It's done several thousand miles and it still sounds OK. Despite the engine nipping up two of three times when I first ran it in the Wassell due to insufficient skirt clearance on the piston.
Regards
Butty Bach
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Vince
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Post by Vince on May 21, 2024 15:29:06 GMT
Hi vince. Very nasty. It looks as if a ring has snagged in a port. Was it because the ring peg failed or was the piston fitted back to front ? Regards the big end. You may have a small amount of sideways rock at the little end but you should not have any noticeable up and down play when you push and pull the conrod with the crankpin at TDC. On the D14/4 engine that is now in my Wassell Bantam there was about 1 thou of up and down movement. As it was going to be used in a bike for Club fun Trials I decided not to worry. We used it for a number of Trials in a rigid D1 then swopped it to the Wassell Bantam chassis and used it as a Trail bike for club runs. It's done several thousand miles and it still sounds OK. Despite the engine nipping up two of three times when I first ran it in the Wassell due to insufficient skirt clearance on the piston. Regards Butty Bach I haven't had any cause to work on this engine in 7 years of ownership but I will be now! The ports don't look to have any damage but when I turned the barrel upside down the locating spigots (is that what you call them?) have been broken off. Attachments:
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Post by buttybach1932 on May 21, 2024 20:51:05 GMT
Hi vince
In the words of Homer Simpson 'It just gets worse and worse'.
The broken cylinder barrel spigot could have caused the piston failure. Because of the loss of support for the piston skirt the piston can rock which makes the rings work harder, which in turn can damage the ring peg. When the ring peg fails disaster is just around the corner.
You need to put the feelers out to see if you can find a replacement cylinder barrel. Fitting in new piston in the damaged barrel is only going to be a short term solution. I have no idea how hard 1H parts are to find but you certainly do not see many about at the Autojumbles I visit.
The other worry is what other problems lurk hidden inside the engine. I think it work be a good idea to carry out a complete strip-down and check all the components.
A short term solution if 1H parts are difficult to find, might be to fit a 9E engine as they are more available. I understand that the engine mounting points are the same as the 1H and 2H engines.
My commiserations
Butty Bach
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Vince
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Post by Vince on May 22, 2024 10:05:01 GMT
Hi vince In the words of Homer Simpson 'It just gets worse and worse'. The broken cylinder barrel spigot could have caused the piston failure. Because of the loss of support for the piston skirt the piston can rock which makes the rings work harder, which in turn can damage the ring peg. When the ring peg fails disaster is just around the corner. You need to put the feelers out to see if you can find a replacement cylinder barrel. Fitting in new piston in the damaged barrel is only going to be a short term solution. I have no idea how hard 1H parts are to find but you certainly do not see many about at the Autojumbles I visit. The other worry is what other problems lurk hidden inside the engine. I think it work be a good idea to carry out a complete strip-down and check all the components. A short term solution if 1H parts are difficult to find, might be to fit a 9E engine as they are more available. I understand that the engine mounting points are the same as the 1H and 2H engines. My commiserations Butty Bach |
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Vince
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Post by Vince on May 22, 2024 10:20:06 GMT
Hi Butty
I think you're right about doing a complete strip down, goodness knows what else I might find. A BTSC member has fished out a 1H barrel albeit with a couple of broken fins. It will need a rebore so perhaps an opportunity to go up a size with the 2H piston. I don't actually know what marque of bike used the 2H engine. I think the 1H and 2H were pretty short lived in production. I don't think it was on any James bikes. Perhaps FB?
I have also thought about the 8E / 9E engine option. I know they are the same mounting points as I have a Captain as well as the Colonel and the frames are identical. But I have spent out on an Electrex ignition unit on the Colonel so need to stick with the 1H if at all possible. I'll keep you updated on my progress. Looks like a slow burn project...
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Post by buttybach1932 on May 22, 2024 16:39:08 GMT
Hi Vince
It's good news if you have a replacement barrel. The broken fins can be always be replaced by brazing on shaped pieces of fin from an old scrap cylinder barrel. I find that pieces of blue clay are ideal to hold the fins in position whilst they are brazed up. As I live less than a mile from an old Brick Factory and Clay Pit there is plenty a couple of feet down in my garden.
The fin repairs need to be carried out before the barrel is re-bored.
James and Francis Barnett never fitted the 2H engine they had moved on to using the 249cc AMC 25T engine. The only British models that used the 2H engine were the Ambassador Supreme in 1957 and 58. The Dayton Albatross Continental Single Scooter in 1958, 59 and 60 and the Panther Model 25 in 1957. I am not aware of any Continental manufacturers that used the 2H engine.
Whilst Villiers listed the 2H engine from 1957 to 1960 they could not have made many, so parts are going to be difficult to find. I have no idea if the barrel spigots and stud centres are the same dimensions so barrels can be interchanged between 1H and 2H engines. Perhaps someone can advise.
Regards
Butty Bach
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Vince
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Post by Vince on Aug 1, 2024 18:04:12 GMT
Here's an update on the 1H engine blowing up in my James Colonel. It's a long story but bear with me.
I managed to source a 'new' engine that came from an abandoned Francis Barnett Cruiser project. Apparently the engine was re-built and I've no reason to doubt that, as all looked clean and tidy, fresh gaskets etc. However once the engine was installed it was apparent that the gearbox was incorrectly set up with the selector in the wrong position. It only took me a few weeks to figure that one out, but I got it sorted in the end.
I had an Electrex ignition system on the old engine which I transferred to the 'new' engine.
So all good so far. Put all the oils in, made all the usual checks and lo and behold it started up!
So it starts really well (close the strangler, flood the carb, 4 priming kicks with ignition off and then one kick with ignition on and off she goes!) and I've even got her to idle steadily. You know there's a but coming...
So she pulls like a train but goodness me, is she rough!! Get to 50 mph easily enough but she vibrates soooo much everything starts to fall off  There's a lot of banging from the engine as if the timing is out.
I've done all the normal carb tuning stuff to no avail. I have to say it sounds like a timing issue, as if the timing isn't advanced enough. Or maybe retarded? But the ignition timing is fixed with the Electrex unit in place with the stator locating on a peg and the rotor goes on a keyway. I've checked the unit thoroughly, twice.
I'm not particularly experienced in rebuilding engines. Is it possible to re-build it with the timing out??
Help!!
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Post by buttybach1932 on Aug 3, 2024 11:53:37 GMT
Hi Vince
From your description it sounds as if the ignition timing is over advanced. If the ignition timing was retarded the engine performance would be flat. I had a look on the Electrex World website and currently they do not make a version of their electronic ignition 'Stator Kits' for the 1H and 2H engine. What system have you got fitted on your 1H engine.
The original contact breaker points ignition gave fixed ignition timing set between 3/16" to 5/32" Before Top Dead Centre. Some of the two stroke electronic ignition kits have an advance curve built into the electronics. The advance curve requirement on a two stroke engine is totally different to a four stroke. The Electrex World 'Stator Kits' for the 9E, 10E and 250cc A series engines have an advance range of around 10 degrees. When set up to their recommendations it gives approximately 13 Degrees BTDC at starting. The ignition advance increases to 23 Degrees BTDC by around 1,800 RPM. At around 2,200 RPM the ignition advance starts to reduce and by around 7,400 RPM it is back to 13 degrees BTDC.
The best way to check the ignition timing is to use a stroboscope as you can see what is actually happening when the engine is running. I use an old Gunson Xenon stroboscope to check the ignition timing, but you need to power it off a 12 volt Car or Motorcycle battery. You need to mark the flywheel and a stationary part of the engine so they coincide when the piston is at the maximum advance setting. My crank angle calculator gives slightly different timing figures to the Electrex World figures. The Villiers ignition timing setting of 3/16" to 5/32" is either side of 25 degrees BTDC which is 4.2mm BTDC.
Best of luck with your engine problem.
Regards
Butty Bach
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Vince
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Post by Vince on Aug 6, 2024 15:51:10 GMT
Thanks Butty. I've got an old strobe so if it still works I'll see if I can check the timing. Villiers Services are the authorised dealers for Villiers Electrex kits. The 1H uses the STK-920L, sold as for the Villiers 2T/4T. (I checked with Electrex before buying.) The unit worked fine with the old (now blown up) engine. I suspect something is amiss with the re-built engine. That's the risk one takes when buying an allegedly re-built engine by persons unknown!
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Post by buttybach1932 on Aug 7, 2024 15:13:18 GMT
Hi Vince I have had another look on the 'Electrex World' website and found the information on the STK-920L Stator kit for the Villiers 2T and 4T engines. I also note that they make a STK-910L Stator Kit for the 1H and 2H engines. The two kits appear to be identical except that the 2T / 4T Stator Kit has a twin output HT coil. Unfortunately the 'Fitting Instructions' for both kits do not mention ignition timing and there appears to be no method of adjusting the ignition timing. Its just bolt it on and hope it works correctly. One thing that I do note is that the 1H and 2H engines appear to have separate mainshafts that press into the full circle flywheels like a BSA Bantam. Is your problem with timing due to the generator side mainshaft being replaced or moving and the flywheel keyway is now out of position. The only way to see what is going on is to use a stroboscope. Another point is that the STK-910L and STK-920L Stator Kits do not mention if the ignition has an inbuilt electronic advance curve. It would be worth speaking to 'Electrex World' to check this out. The stroboscope check would confirm if the advance curve was working correctly. Regards Butty Bach   |
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Vince
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Post by Vince on Aug 8, 2024 15:27:40 GMT
I have checked the timing and it does advance when I give the engine a good rev. So I don't think it's the Electrex unit.
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There's a lot of banging from the engine as if the timing is out.
